Tax Warrior Perspectives
Tax Warrior Perspectives

Episode 5 · 5 months ago

Tax Warrior Rewind: Tax Implications of a Remote Workforce with Jennifer Karpchuk

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This month's Tax Warrior Rewind takes a look back at Jane's discussion with Jennifer Karpchuk. With in-person restrictions due to Covid, millions of people began working from home. As a result, businesses are trying to navigate the complex world of state and local taxes (SALT). Jennifer, an attorney at Chamberlain Hrdlicka, is an expert on how these nuanced tax laws impact employers and employees. This is especially important as we approach the end of the year.

Get the full show notes and more resources at TaxWarriors.com/Podcast

Good Day and welcome to tax warrior rewind. I'm Rikael more, marketing manager at drucker and Scacchetti, and Jane's off this month for some well deserved rest and to have a little bit of Thanksgiving Turkey. Today we're reviewing an urgent issue for employers. Back in September, we featured attorney Jennifer carpchuck of Chamberlaine her LIQUA. They are a recognized expert on state and local taxes. Jennifer informed business owners about the traps and complexities of having a remote workforce in multiple states. From a compliance perspective, this is extremely important as we close in on the end of the taxier. This is vital information and should not be missed. So be sure to listen to this episode and learn how to manage this part of Your Business and how to plan for this shift in the way the people work. Moving forward, welcome to tax warrior perspectives, where our goal is to bring you insights for building, sustaining and growing your wealth. Join our expert discussion of the most crucial ideas and strategies for including tax in your financial plants and now here's your host, Jane Skecchetti. Welcome to tax warrior prospectives. I'm Jane's Skecchetti, and today we'll be talking to Jennifer carpchuck on a timely topic that this pandemic has brought front and Center for many businesses and individuals. What are the tax implications and risks to having so many people work from home? Our goal is to enlighten you on the issues and prepare you to meet with your advisors about your specific facts and for the advisors listening to identify issues for their clients. We hope at the end of our podcast you can say that was a great podcast and I know what I need to do. So let me tell you a little bit about our guest. Jennifer represents companies and individuals in various matters related to state and local taxation, with an emphasis on the minimization of state and local tax obligations. She is a...

...partner at the prestigious law firm of Chamberlain her Liqua, White, Williams and Autrey. She has extensive experience handling state and local tax matters, including those related to corporate income tax, Franchise Tax, gross receipts tax, excise tax, personal income tax, sales and use tax, business privilege tax and real estate and property tax, pretty much anything that has the word tax after it. She also has experience with tax controversy and litigation and qualified opportunity zones. Jennifer was named to the US News and World Report Best Lawyers List in two thousand and twenty one, as a super lawyer, rising star in two thousand and sixteen and two thousand and nineteen, and as a top tax lawyer in mainline today, in two thousand and nineteen. She holds her law degree from my Alma Mater, Teen University, and is admitted to both bars of New Jersey and Pennsylvania. My firm Drucker and Scatchetti work extensively with Jennifer and with her other talented partners and I am really excited to have Jennifer here today. And Jennifer, can we say state and local tax obligations and means salt the little acronym standing for state and local tax, because if I had to read that again there's no way I get through. Welcome Jennifer. Thank you so much for having me. Well, Jennifer, let's get started. My opening comment was linking this to the pandemic to a host of state and local issues facing individuals and businesses. Can we start with what you are seeing at a macro level today? Of course. So at a macro level, the trend we see right now is that human resources is really guiding what companies are doing right and a lot of times they're not consulting with their tax departments or outside tax counsel or advisors. And that makes sense in a way, because companies are really trying to be flexible. They're trying to accommodate their employees who are...

...working remotely or have been working relutmotely for, you know, sixteen, seventeen months at this point in a lot of cases, and so the trend is to continue to allow for some amount of flexibility. The problem with a remote or a semi remote workforce is that they are creating that all powerful nexus or connection with a state and once they do that, there are tax implications that company is deemed to be aware of, whether that's for income tax purposes, and with that the potential loss of public hundred and seventy two protection or sales tax purposes, grocer resipts tax purposes, local business tax purposes, which a lot of companies forget about and then you have your employment taxes. So there's just a whole host of issues that come up when you have employees, even remote employees, in a state or locality. And again, a lot of times what we're seeing right now is that companies are sort of forgetting about that. Well, I've also experienced where companies don't even know about it, where employees are moving and they're not necessarily telling their employer that they're moving, whether they have a temporary move to a Jersey shore home where they have a more permanent move for a year to follow a spouse to another city for a fellowship or a short term job opportunity. But we were surprised at how many of even our own employees weren't where we thought they were. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. It's a huge problem for employers. You know, unless you're on a zoom called daily and you start to notice that that office is not the same office that they used to be in and suddenly there's a beach behind them, you know then you might not know where they are right. So it's definitely a problem for employers to be able to sort of track their employees. So I know there was a case for the salt experts were following. We were following a dealing with remote work, and would you discuss New Hampshire versus Massachusetts and the issues raised in that case and what the Supreme Court's denial of certain means? Especially on the east coast, it's so easy to cross state eight lines from where you live and where you work that this case in particular,...

I think, really resonated with those of us on the East Coast. Sure. So, New Hampshire versus Massachusetts dealt with Massachusetts policy that it enacted during the pandemic. Ordinarily, Massachusetts would only subject non residence to tax if their work was performed in Massachusetts, right. But in light of the pandemic, Massachusetts adopted a sort of status quo approach. So they essentially acted as if all employees who had been working in Massachusetts before the pandemic were still working in Massachusetts, despite the fact that they were, you know, working remotely from wherever their home might be. So if you had a new Hampshire resident that was working in Massachusetts before the pandemic but was now working from home in New Hampshire, that individual would continue to be subject to Massachusetts income tax. Despite the fact that they were working from home outside of Massachusetts according to this Massachusetts policy. Not surprisingly, New Hampshire was not all too pleased with this policy and they sought to invoke the US Supreme Courts original jurisdiction by suing one state in another state. So here they sued Massachusetts and they were attempting to invalidate its policy. And a lot of salt experts were interested in this case, you know, for the fact that it was a state versus state and the policy that related to Massachusetts, but also because it impacted more than just this Massachusetts and New Hampshire, these two states. It had implications for any convenience of the employer jurisdiction. And and there are hand and Full Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, right right in Philadelphia, Yep. So there's there's a bunch around the northeast that that follow this sort of convenience of the employer rule. So you know, they they were all watching this pretty closely. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court did deny certain New Hampshire v Massachusetts. You know, it's hard to say why they did that. Obviously the Supreme Court doesn't need to say why it declines a case, there are a lot of thoughts. You know, it could be that perhaps they weren't interested in the issue. That's one option, of course. Another is that New Hampshire does not have an income tax. So there was a lot of questions about whether New Hampshire actually had standing to bring this case, sort of like...

...did they have damages exactly? There was no direct financial harm that they could really point to. Is More abstract. So it could be that the the court just didn't think that they were the right entity or what have you to be bringing this case. So, you know, it's really not the end of the road, though there are still these again, these convenience of the employer jurisdictions that it Massachusetts policy was temporary, but these convenience of the employer jurisdictions are not temporary. These are policies that have been on the books in these jurisdictions for years. They're not going anywhere. So there there of course, up for challenge. And again, as mentioned, that's Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, but also in New York, and there is actually a case that was recently filed in July in New York to challenge that state's convenience of the employer rule and the anticipation following that case in New York is to see if they'll have a different set of of litigants that the Supreme Court will then listen to it. Do you think it'll make its way all the way up? So the individual that had sued here is Professor Zelin Scheme. Back in two thousand and three he brought the exact same case in New York and he appealed it all the way up to the Supreme Court and ultimately the Supreme Court denied start. There he has renewed his fight based on essentially differ a change in facts. Right that the the world is a bit different in the past two decades than it was back in two thousand and three. So I would anticipate that he would again try to bring it all the way to the US Supreme Court and see whether or not they'll change their mind as to whether they want to review the case or not. Yeah, I think a lot of us are hoping that they will review. We need clarity in order to advise our clients. But you very quickly mentioned public law eighty six to seven two earlier. I know that some new guidance was just issued on this federal law, and it is a federal law that you educated me on that when we were talking earlier. So what's the implications for maybe start with what is public law eight hundred and sixty two, seven two, why it's important that it's a federal law and what the implications are for it. Sure, so, public law...

...eighty six to seventy two. Again, it is a federal law, but it prohibits states from imposing an income tax on a company WHO's only connection with that particular state is the solicitation of sales of tangible personal property that are sent outside of the state for approval and then are filled by shipment or delivery from outside the state. All right, that's a mouthful. Give me an Examin it is. So I sell a widget and I am located in Maryland and I have no connection with Pennsylvania other than I send my sales reps into Pennsylvania to solicit sales for my widget. They then will send orders back to me in Maryland and I will approve them in Maryland and then I will ship them from Maryland to Pennsylvania. So I have this sort of you know, one thing we have to remember of public at seventy two is you have nexus right. I have these this physical presence of my employees in Pennsylvania. They're soliciting sales, but that's all they are doing and as long as that is all they are doing, then you can claim the protection of public a six to seventy two. And you don't know income tax in that state. For companies that can fall within the parameters of Public d six to seventy two, it offers this huge relief right. It means no income tax in that state. So it can be it can be a huge deal for states that are still able to to fall within its parameters. But it's limited now, right, because it only applies the tangible personal property. So it's not going to apply to services. And you have to be careful what you're doing because you can lose the protections if you're going beyond that solicitation with your employees in the state, and it doesn't take much. It can take one employee to be doing more than solicitation and now all the sudden you have lost the protection and you said something that's very important. It's not applying to services. So you know you can't use this where you have an employee working in Massachusetts. You're located in Pennsylvania and their home is in master choosets. They're working from home. You can't use the fact that that's the only thing going on in Massachusetts to say that you don't have nexus to Massachusetts. That's what I'm hearing you say.

If they're doing services correct right, right. So, if they're performing the services in their Home Office in Massachusetts, that next is to Massachusetts is likely to exist. Right, they will. They'll have that nexus and they won't have sort of this exception of publical ID seventy two grass to right. Well, there's a lot going on and I'm imagining and we haven't even we're touching on the taxes. We even haven't touched on workmen's COMP and issues like that that really fall into you know, when you have employees working in other state. So it's it really is a moment for everyone to take a second and think about where they are. Take that sense is find out where your employees are working and see what your exposure is. Right. Absolutely, and particularly, and going back to the other part of your question, the MTC. MTC stands for multistate tax commission. Okay, they were essentially formed by a group of state tax administrators during the late s and in part they were formed as a response to the passage of Public Law to seventy two in the late S. Okay and the MTC has periodically throughout the years issued guidance interpreting various aspects of the federal law. Again, there there is no other guidance. It was written in nineteen fifty nine. There has been no changes to it since nineteen fifty nine. There's one Supreme Court case on it, but the empty CCS has continued to issue guidance on sort of what their interpretation of public two hundred and seventy two is, and so their latest iteration is is sort of how it applies to address Internet activities today. The changes have sort of a host of implications because they are attempting, in many practitioners eyes, to eviscerate the protections of the federal law. Essentially, if your website is doing anything that they would consider to go beyond solicitation, then you are subjects to then come tax in that state. You've lost the protections of public like two hundred and seventy two. So you know, for instance, if you have a chat feature on your website. Right, if you can chat with...

...somebody about an issue, that would go beyond solicitation. Amazing. Yeah, and and cookies. Right, so if you use cookies on on your site for non solicitation purposes, is sometimes they're used to adjust inventory or production. That would go beyond the protections of public l six hundred and seventy two. So so it's really you know, the MCC's guidance is guidance, right, it's not law. You know, it's not binding on taxpayers, it's not binding on states, but there is a fair assumption that MTC member states and others will be influenced by their guidance and that audits will become even more aggressive for taxpayers that do claim the protections of public l six two hundred and seventy two. Wow again. You know, when you think of working from home, you start thinking of employees, you think of withholding. But then this has implications for business tax and it has implications for net income tax and, as you said, you know, all of this just rolls up to a lot of confusion for people because they're not really sure what the law is. And unfortunately, especially now, where certain businesses are delaying openings, a lot of uncertainty continues as to where businesses are operating, where employees are living, where employees are functioning. Jennifer, I really appreciate the information. I hope it's helped our listeners. But let's start, let's end rather where we started. What are some specific facts a client should be identifying to prepare for that conversation with their advisors, or what issues should advisors be proactively considering for their clients? So, for those employers that have remote or hybrid employees, they should really be evaluating what those employees are doing, what potential effect those employees may have in states where the company isn't otherwise physically located and doesn't otherwise have nexus. They want to consider whether the remote employee may be subject in the company to any filing obligations or tax obligations right, and that can be again, there's been a host of taxes. We've mentioned sales tax, gross receipts tax, local taxes, again, business taxes, local business taxes that people...

...often forget about. And then, for income tax purposes, if you have a client that is claiming the protections of public a hundred and seventy two in a particular state. Now is really a crucial time to spot the potential issues that both a remote employee in that state could create, as well as the potential issues that could come from the MPTC's wonderful guidance that they've issued. Good Advice. Jennifer, I really appreciate you being here today. I like to ask all my guests a question so that our listeners can get to know you a little bit better. So don't intend for it to be any kind of trick question, but just so we can get to know you better. And I heard this question asked of a candidate for a President position and I thought it made so much sense and it really did disclose a lot about that person. So I'm going to ask you when did you realize you could make a difference? That's a great question. I think what first made me realize that I could make a difference within, you know, this profession was individuals and smaller business owners that I was representing in cases where there were really large assessments against them personally or their business and sort of in those cases where a win to them meant so much more. You know, I nobody likes to be audited, nobody likes an assessment right, but at least with some of my larger clients they have an entire tax team to deal with it. They have in house counsel, there's a ceasuite. It doesn't mean that they need to contemplate, you know, selling their house or digging into their retirement savings to address the issue. So there's a reason that we are called a counselor at law. You know, with these smaller clients and individuals, it really is acting as a counselor at times, like calming them down, helping them through a very difficult time in their lives. And was sort of that through those interactions with those smaller clients and smaller business owners where I really realize that what I do is making a difference in their lives. I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is, and I've been in that seat watching how important it is for them to have that kind of representation, because the same laws apply to the small business as to the large. So, before we leave, where can our listeners find you if they wish to learn more about the ideas...

...we discussed here? Sure you can reach out to me at my email, which is Jennifer Je Ennifer Dot krp Chuck Ka Arpc CH UK at Chamberlain Lawcom, and I'm sure you're also on Linkedin so they can reach out to you there. We will also have the information on our website at tax warriorscom. Just search state and local tax and you should be able to find all this information. Thank you, Jennifer. I really appreciate you coming on to our podcast. Take Care and thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for joining us today. We hope we've shared our expertise in a way that positions you to discover the best strategies and ideas to build, sustain and grow your wealth. If you like to listen to more episodes, you can subscribe on your preferred podcasting APP or visit our website, where you will also find show notes and important disclosures. Tax warriorscom slash podcast. This has been a production of twin flame studios.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (7)